What is Advent? - Ben Witherington | Wake-Up Call Conversations

JD (00:09) Wake up, sleeper, rise from the dead and Christ will shine on you. JD Walt here with another one of our wake up call conversations and y'all, you know, we have... There are really no celebrities in the kingdom of God, but if there were, we would have one today. His name is Dr. Ben Witherington III. And I'm not aggrandizing or even overstating it when I say that. He's one of the preeminent New Testament scholars of our time. And I've known Ben since 1994. We've been, I was his student, I am his student. We have become friends in these years. He's been a mentor to me. And we wanted to get a conversation with him around Jesus and Advent and Christmas. so Ben, welcome to the Wake Up Call Conversations podcast. Ben Witherington, III (01:18) Good to be with you. JD (01:20) Yeah, and if you know, those of you watching, you've probably seen him on 60 Minutes in 2020 and Inside Edition and who knows where else he's made appearances on TV. I'm sure there's a list somewhere. But yeah, the thing that I thought of Ben, we're coming up into Advent and we've got a tremendous daily reader that's been written by Anna Grace Legband, who may have been one of Ben's students. She's an Asbury Seminary graduate in recent years. And she's written a reader called Advent for All Who Need It. And one of the things just leading into this, I'll say that I really appreciate it is that it's, know, Ben, I just don't like it when everybody just wants to go snow village on December 1st or November 26th or whatever, because she's writing about the real themes of Advent and the real humanity and struggles that people have. Talk to us about what the world was like when Jesus was born and the situation there in the Middle East. Ben Witherington, III (02:44) Well, Jesus, believe it or not, was born before Christ. He was born somewhere between 4 and 6 BC because Dionysius Exigus got the calendar all screwed up. And it's been screwed up ever since. Herod the Great was king of Judea at the time. And Jesus was born in Bethlehem. Well, that's part of his turf only a few miles away from Jerusalem. Herod was partially Jewish, but mainly Ijumean, that would be Edomite, and most Jews didn't care about that, didn't like that. mean Herod became a king because he conquered the area, and then the Romans authorized him to be a client king of the Roman Empire. That's what happened. So first of all, we're talking about a pretty tense and hostile environment, not nice quiet Christmas carols, no, no Reese's Peanut Butter Bars, none of that stuff, right? We're talking about a birth under difficult circumstances. And they had to go all the way to Bethlehem because Joseph had to register for the census in his family, genealogical hometown. JD (03:43) Yes. Ben Witherington, III (04:05) So that's why they were there and not in Nazareth. They were not from Bethlehem. They were from Nazareth, in fact. And that was a long journey with a pregnant woman, to say the least. So there was danger along the way. And when they got there, all of a sudden, Mary quickened and here comes the baby and he still hadn't found a place to stay. One thing to say about that part of the story, there is no story about they were not welcome in an inn. What actually it says is there was no room in the guest room. That's what a cataluma is. So they were probably put wherever the beast of burden of the family of Joseph was kept, downstairs, under the house, behind the house, somewhere like that. And so Jesus was not born in a barn. Thank you, Francis of Assisi for giving us that image. He was born in the family house, in all likelihood. And unfortunately, Herod being the paranoid guy that he was, who killed various of his own relatives, when he heard from the wise men that there was a baby born who was going to be the king of the Jews, I mean, he pushed the panic button. So somewhere during the first two years of Jesus' life, The wise men showed up, heard about Jesus, had been traveling a long time, and Herod decided, well, y'all go down there to Bethlehem and honor him and then come back and tell me exactly where he is, which they did not do because they were warned not to do that. And when, in fact, the wise men showed up saying, we just visited with Herod the great a while back, they had to run for their lives and they ran to Egypt. So this story is full of hostility. It involves killing some babies. But may I just tell you that we're not talking dozens of babies lying in the street. Bethlehem was not even a one stoplight town or two stoplight town like Wilmore. Bethlehem was a wide place in the road. We're talking a few hundred people max and maybe four or five babies at the most that are under two years of age. But nevermind. Nonetheless, it was still dangerous because the one that Herod wanted got away and made his way to Egypt for a while and then they returned to Nazareth. So the nice little Christmas carols that we sing and all that sort of stuff just sort of papers over the real environment of intensity in which Jesus was born. And remember, the story started out weird anyway because nobody was looking for a virginal conception of the Messiah. JD (06:58) Yeah, let's back up. I want to back up to that. I mean, you just kind of gave us the contours of, I think one of the songs that might get closest to the real Advent is In the Bleak Midwinter. Right? It was a bleak situation. Ben Witherington, III (06:58) And yet that's what happened. Yep. It was, but it wasn't winter. It was more than likely spring. But that's okay. It doesn't matter what time of year it was. The reason our Christmas is in winter is because the church in its wisdom decided to replace the various pagan festivals with Christian festivals. And the big festival for Romans was Saturnalia, which is, and what's interesting about that festival, which by the way took place on December 23rd, 24th, 25th, is that that was the festival of the reversal, namely that in every family that had a slave, the slave became the head of the household for three days. And that's all, you know, and then it goes back to ⁓ normal course of affairs. But in fact, there's a sense of appropriateness that we picked that season to do Christmas because Jesus did come to make the least, the last, and the lost, the first, the most, and the found. He did come to do that. And so it was appropriate. Now you know there are four Sundays in Advent. We're talking about Advent here. Advent from the Latin ad venio, which means to come. JD (08:29) Yes. Yes. Ben Witherington, III (08:35) The first Sunday has nothing to do with Christmas. It's the second coming Sunday. And Charles Wesley's famous hymn, Come Thou Long Expected Jesus, is not about Christmas. It's about the return of Christ. So, you know, what we're doing in the Advent season is we're celebrating both comings of Christ squished together in four Sundays. That's what we're doing. And it's a reminder that Jesus isn't finished with us yet. He's going to be back. JD (09:05) So is Jesus coming back then? Ben Witherington, III (09:10) Absolutely, he's coming back. And we have no clue when, because Jesus himself says in Mark 13, 32, of that day or hour, nobody knows, not even the angels in heaven, not even the son knows while he's on earth, only the father knows and he ain't telling. So, you know, that should have ruled out theological weather forecasting a long time ago, but it didn't. We've still got people saying, I know when Jesus is coming. I'm sorry, they don't know more than Jesus did when he was with us in the first place, so no. What we know is the fact of his return, not the timing of his return, and that's a good thing. It's a really good thing because if we knew when he was coming back, we, with our devious little minds, could say, okay, I've got three more months I can send for a while, and then I'll repent and turn back to God, you know? No. JD (10:07) Yeah. Ben Witherington, III (10:09) God provides enough about the future to give us hope, but not so much that we don't have to live by faith every day. We need to live by faith every day. JD (10:16) Yeah. And you know, it's often like to contrast what I would call apocalyptic anxiety with eschatological hope. Ben Witherington, III (10:29) Absolutely. That's exactly right. You know, unfortunately, we've messed up that whole season because if you were to back up to All Hallows Eve, which we've just had a few days ago, that's the day before All Saints Day. So what they were celebrating, wait for it, is the resurrection of the dead and second coming. This whole season, what has happened to us, of course, is our Holy Days have been replaced by holidays. And they've been secularized to death. And it's unfortunate. But from the Christian calendar, we have this season of celebrating the saints come marching in, Jesus shows up again, and all kinds of good stuff, to say the least. JD (11:00) Yeah. And so, Advent, I've really tried to lift this up for years, is that you begin Advent with the very end in mind. You're looking to the far horizon and the return of Jesus. And at the return of Jesus, we have the resurrection of the dead and the judgment, correct? Ben Witherington, III (11:44) Absolutely. And there is a long period of time in which all kinds of things have to come and pass. Jesus putting all his enemies under his feet, the messianic banquet, you and me getting to sit down with Abraham and saying, well, how was that journey from Ur of the Chaldees to Huron? You know, those kinds of things. I'm looking forward to those days. I got a lot of questions for Abraham, to say the least. How come you tried to pass off your wife as your sister? You know, those kinds of questions. JD (12:11) All right. And so, yeah, and then we begin to start remembering the very strange, mysterious. Now, let me ask you. So I'll ask this question. Do you believe that Jesus is returning? You said yes. You got it on good evidence. The second question is, do you believe in the virgin birth? Ben Witherington, III (12:33) Absolutely, and it was important because if Jesus was going to be the unblemished lamb that was the sacrifice and atonement for the sins of the whole world, past, present and future, then by golly yes, he needed to be Adam gone right, not Adam gone wrong. He needed to be Adam without taint, without sin, and one who resisted the temptations and that's how he's depicted and Paul of course calls him the last Adam and that's right he came to start the human race over again that was the whole point Adam mucked it up from the beginning Jesus came to be Adam gone right that's why Luke's genealogy goes all the way back to Adam, He's the son of God and he's the son of man and he is Adam gone right. And that's the picture that we should have from the start. JD (13:30) Peace. He's the new humanity, which should have been the original. He's the OG. Ben Witherington, III (13:38) Exactly, Yep. That's for sure. JD (13:46) And so the Holy Spirit, I mean, it's interesting, Ben, you know how the culture is. I was just seeing the day, you probably know Caleb Friedman. ⁓ I think he's just put out a book on birth narratives and historiography, reopening a closed case, he says. And his whole point is to say, the ancient biographers, including Matthew and Luke, intended their birth narratives not to be legend, but historical. Ben Witherington, III (14:19) Yes, that's exactly right. one of the things is, and there are several things that are interesting about this. Let's talk about two of them. Number one, nobody was expecting a virginal conception because what the Hebrew of Isaiah 714 says is an Alma, young woman of nubal, young woman of marriageable age will conceive and give birth to a child. Now, that doesn't imply that there wasn't a husband involved. It doesn't say there wasn't a husband involved. It simply says that a woman who was previously a virgin became pregnant and gave birth to a child. Nobody read that story as a story about a virgin birth. Nobody before it happened. So what happened is the event in history led to running back to the Old Testament and going, so that's what that was about. It involved a re-understanding of that text to say the least. So that's one of the most important things about that story. And the other reason it was important to say the least is that you can't start the race over again if you're dealing with somebody who's already a sinner. That's just second verse same as the first. Little bit louder, little bit worse. So no. JD (15:38) Yeah. Yeah. Ben Witherington, III (15:45) We can't do it that way, to say the least. JD (15:50) So, yeah, this is not legend that we're dealing with. This is history. And it's anomalous to be clear, to be sure, but. Ben Witherington, III (15:59) Correct. Correct. And see, here's the other thing about this. If you're talking about a young Jewish girl, most girls were engaged in the troth between ages of 12 and 14 or 15, okay? If you're talking about a girl who got pregnant out of wedlock, everybody in the Jewish planet is going to assume somebody got her impregnated outside of marriage. And that is in fact, I in the second century AD, we have a rabbi who says a Roman soldier must have knocked her up. the name, get this, the name of the soldier that he named was Pantera, like the metal rock group. That's where that word comes from. And so that would have been the normal assumption. Here's what I would say. You don't make up a story about a woman who's miraculously pregnant unless it actually happened in an honor and shame culture because it's too incredible to believe and the scriptures didn't seem to predict it. JD (17:10) Yeah, I mean you can't say you hear this and you can't make this up Ben Witherington, III (17:15) Exactly. And the same applies to Jesus' death. They weren't looking for a crucified Messiah. Crucified Messiah was much of an oxymoron as Microsoft works. JD (17:26) Some things never change about Ben Witherington. I love it. there's so many places that I want to go. You mentioned something I'd love to get just a little bit of a sidebar on because... I don't think we understand this. This is kind of a game changing context through which we need to learn to read the New Testament. Honor, shame, culture. What is that? Ben Witherington, III (18:05) Right. Well, in the ancient Near East, if you had a sort of ranking of values, at the top of the value ranking would be honor and shame. Men were supposed to establish the honor of the family in the public square. Women were supposed to protect the family from shame by remaining faithful to their husband and, you know, not messing around with somebody other than their husband and those sorts of things. In an honor and shame culture, the most important thing is to gain honor. And the most important thing to avoid is to avoid shame. mean, let's take one example. Look at how Judas Iscariot's life ended. Why did he go out as a young man and a disciple of Jesus after he had ratted on Jesus? Why did he go out and hang himself? Because he couldn't live with the shame. And here's our problem. We don't understand honor and shame cultures. Now, Oriental cultures, Japan, China, Korea, boy, they're still honor and shame cultures. They understand it. They understand about gaining face and losing face, all of that sort of stuff. We have lost our sense of honor. And while you do that, you lose your sense of shame. You lose your sense of shame. Sin's not a shame anymore, it's just a mistake. It's a boo-boo. And you know, that culture, honor and shame was everything. It was everything. Now, for Jews, the only thing above honor and shame on the value hierarchy was truth. Truth above all. That was not true with the Romans and the Greeks. you know, they'd rather lie than die. They'd rather preserve their honor with lies than die. mean, honor and shame shapes in various different ways. What was different about Jews is they were the only people that were the people of the sacred book that said the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth. So for them, that had to be the top value in their value hierarchy, but they still were very much. honor and shame people in various ways. JD (20:25) Yeah. Talk to us a little bit about, you know, another early in the Advent season, second, maybe probably the second week, we're bringing John the Baptist onto the stage. Ben Witherington, III (20:38) Yeah, yes, and could we could stop calling him John the Baptist? He wasn't a Protestant before his time. He was John the Baptizer. Come on now. Come on now. Yes, and we're doing that because of course, he's the one who came before Jesus. He was the forebear, the cousin who was preparing the way and announcing the coming of Jesus. And and what what he said is what we do not do during the Christmas season. In order to prepare for the coming of Jesus, what are you supposed to do? Repent. Repent. Repent. That's what you're supposed to do before the coming of Jesus. And that's what John the baptizer's story reminds us of. The voice of one crying in the wilderness, prepare ye the way of the Lord. Well, how did he do that? He dunked people in the water, told them, your snake spawn if you don't repent. So repentance is like the second part of the story after the he's coming back, then let's get ready for the first coming. We're not ready for the second coming. So let's just get ready for the first coming. That also requires repentance. Both comings require repentance to be ready for it. JD (21:47) Yep. And that's that's that doesn't kind of really square with it's a holly jolly Christmas so much, but. Ben Witherington, III (22:08) More with grandmother got run over by a reindeer, something like that. JD (22:12) God, run up for a reindeer, my gosh. Well, yeah, so we go to John the Baptist and then we go to Mary and... Ben Witherington, III (22:22) Yep. And you know, the question some people ask is about these four candles now, right? Hope, love, peace, you know, that sort of thing. Why those things? We are trying to re-inculcate the values of Christ before we meet Him at Christmas. He's the one that we hope in. He's the example of love. He came as the Prince of Peace. I mean, this is what those four candles are about, is these are the qualities of Christ and the qualities He wants in us. How are we doing on that front? JD (23:07) Yeah, you know, I've often bristled at times against the way that that's been just presented as are these sort of abstract values. And I'm like. Ben Witherington, III (23:17) Yeah, no. No, it's, Jesus is the Exemplar. You know, have this mind in yourself that was also in Christ Jesus, who? We're supposed to be recapitulating the path of Christ in our own life, having a long obedience in the same direction like Jesus did. JD (23:41) Yeah, come, yes, so, the Advent wreath. And Anne Grace, in her book, she has written it according to those four themes. But what I appreciate about what she's done is, well, implies, what's the other side of hope? Hopelessness, despair, right? Ben Witherington, III (24:18) Right. Right. JD (24:20) And peace, the other side of peace is chaos. And love, I would say indifference. And then joy would be sadness. And it's, we've already set up, that's the ancient context of the coming of Jesus. That's the scene, you're... Israel. mean, yeah, let's just a little bit more on. The setting there in ancient Israel, it was not like King David and King Solomon. I mean, this is another. Ben Witherington, III (25:03) No, no, it was a very dark time and you know, they were still celebrating Hanukkah, which was the celebration of the Maccabean victory, when for a very short period of time, Jews retook the Holy Land and had it to themselves and could celebrate. They still celebrated Hanukkah even during the lifetime of Jesus, but it must have been a pretty somber celebration because if they went to Jerusalem, guess who was there? Pontius Pilate, you know, it was it was a difficult time to say the least I mean one of the ways that I would put it is I mean I've I've been close to various families in Russia who were my age and They lived all the way through communism Where all the churches were almost all the churches except Orthodox churches were closed. I went to preach at the oldest Russian Baptist Church in Moscow. And ⁓ it was an honor. It was where Billy Graham had preached when he did a revival in Russia. But this is the only church that Stalin couldn't close. And the reason is that his grandmother and the other babushkas got in front of the front door when here come the soldiers to close and bar the church. And they said, over our dead body, are you closing this church? We're going to celebrate Christmas. We're going to celebrate Advent. We're going to celebrate Christmas. We're going to celebrate the New Year's. We're going to celebrate Epiphany. We're going to celebrate Lent. We're going to celebrate Easter and Pentecost. Go away. You know, when I got there to preach, the pulpit was one of these high preaches and then there was a wraparound balcony and all of the babushkas were standing up in the balcony. They didn't get to sit downstairs. That was just for the men. It was a very conservative Russian Baptist Church, you know? And I looked up there and it was like looking at the angels. There they were. They should have been preaching. Their testimony should have been given on that day, to say the least. They were the ones who kept hope alive when there seemed to be no hope. They were the ones who persevered and finally were able to go back to worshiping God in a place that will try its best to squeeze the life out of Christianity and couldn't do it. JD (27:32) And you're saying that's a kind of an analogous situation to first century Israel. Ben Witherington, III (27:40) Exactly. Exactly. It was a very oppressive situation. you know, Jews were nervous in the service. I mean, they didn't know who to trust. Many of their own people were betraying them, you know. And there were many people who were traitors, like Judas, you know, in various ways. And then there were other people who thought, let's become terrorists and we'll solve the problem with war. And that didn't work either. JD (28:08) Zealots. Yeah, mean, yeah, there's a whole cast of characters that I don't know. just you grow up reading the Bible and you're just you're just not really reading it through its historical context. And so you just see Pharisee and Sadducee and. And you don't pay attention to it because let's just get to the manger, right? Ben Witherington, III (28:10) Exactly. Exactly. You know, the one writer in recent American history that understood the undertones of violence and racism and hatred and all of that that was just hovering around this story is Flannery O'Connor. If you read Flannery O'Connor, you know, A Good Man is Hard to /find. Boy, she understands the dark clouds around the gospel story to say the least and yet still as a very committed Christian trying to bring light and shed light not only on the story but on our stories as well. Most Christian writers are not like her in that regard because they don't understand the character of that ancient culture in which Jesus came. You know, the words of George McDonald were “We were looking for a king to slay our foes and lift us high. Thou camest a little baby thing that made a woman cry. T'was much that we were made like God long before, but that God should be made like us much more.” We're talking about the biggest miracle of all time. God showed up in person in the form of his son Jesus Christ. JD (30:00) And just about Jesus, you know, Ben, you've given your whole life, really. ⁓ You've written a commentary on every single book of the New Testament, isn't that right? I mean, what is it about Jesus that so captured and continues to capture your not just attention, but your devotion? Ben Witherington, III (30:15) Yeah, that's right. You know, my friend James Howell, who's for a long time been the pastor at Myers Park United Methodist, which was our home church in Charlotte, North Carolina, we were doing a normal interview. And at one part in the interview, he asked me, do you love Jesus? And I just broke down and cried. Of course I do. You know, I've done everything I could in my life to exalt him and to honor Him. you know, I wouldn't have the love for the world I have, and love for my own country, which is so badly messed up right now. You know, it's just heartbreaking. Were it not for the fact that Jesus keeps pouring out His love on me, and telling me, keep going, keep doing, keep serving, you know, and so I wouldn't be where I am or do what I do without Jesus. JD (31:33) What is the, what is the, the, it's otherworldly, but it's super human. What is the love of Jesus? Ben Witherington, III (31:48) You know, is, there's an old hymn that was written in the 1920s by a man who went crazy and was in an insane asylum. And he wrote his last hymn on the wall and he talked about if the ocean, the deep ocean, represents the depth of Christ's love, I could not write enough words to cover the depth, the height, and the breadth of the love of God for me. You know, and I mean he had a moment of clarity. wrote this hymn. He talked about the blood of Christ that is deeper than any ocean and covers everything and everybody. And ⁓ I mean just wow, you know. JD (32:45) Yeah, yeah, and of course Advent takes us to Christmas and then Christmas begins the long journey to the cross. talk to us about why the significance of the blood of Jesus. Ben Witherington, III (33:05) Sure. You know, one thing I will say to you is that most Christians don't know that Nicholas of Myra, Saint Nick, was a real Christian bishop in Myra in Turkey, who was famous for giving gifts to the poor and to other people. He did that out of his service for Christ. I've been to his church in Myra, and he was a real person. But you see what's happened with our Christian traditions. They've been turned into secular traditions about getting more ⁓ booty, getting more possessions, that sort of stuff, you know. It is unfortunate that even Christians don't know all of the Christian depth about the stories about Christmas. And they certainly don't understand the whole business about Lent and Easter. So what is it about the blood? Well, here's the thing. God is a holy God. God is a just God. And it's not like the girl that was in my interversity group at Carolina who had just become a Christian and said, the way I see it, it all works out very well. I like committing sins. God likes forgiving sins. No. If you think it's easy for God to forgive sin, look at the cross. What the blood is about is paying the price for the sins of the world, which is what Jesus did. And it has to do with propitiating the wrath of God. That whole thing, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me. Every place in the Old Testament we hear that image of the cup. It's the cup of wrath poured out on sin. Jesus had a Holy Father, and He was a holy man, and He took our place. It should have been us on the cross. The only person who didn't deserve to die for their sins was Jesus, who did die. The blood of Jesus Christ is what it's all about in terms of atoning for sin. You don't want a God that's not both holy and love. You want a God who's Holy love. Not love without holiness, thank goodness, and not holiness without love. And the mediator between those two things is clearly Jesus Christ on the cross. JD (35:44) Yeah, it's almost like when you go all the way back to the Garden of Eden and it's like this scene is unfolding of sin and disobedience and it's like God knew, well knew before but he knew for sure that he knew, he's like I've seen this movie. I know where this is going to go and imagine the, can't walk it back. Ben Witherington, III (36:18) Now, we had an incredible preacher, E.V. Hill, at Gordon Conwell back when I was in seminary at the end of the 70s, B.C., before cell phone, right? And he said, do you really think God didn't know all this in advance? He's not sitting up there behind his pulpit in heaven, and he says, angels, come look at this. I hadn't thought of that. We need to do something about it. JD (36:28) Hahaha! Ben Witherington, III (36:46) I mean, he was great, but you're absolutely right. God knew what was coming. But here's the other interesting thing, JB. The five things that are true about humanity is we have limitations of time, space, knowledge, power, and we are mortal. We were born mortal. So was Adam and Eve. The reason there was a tree of life in the garden in addition to a tree of good and evil is, if they had not disobeyed, they could have partaken of the tree of every last day life, and we could have had a really happy story about humanity from the beginning, but we didn't. And that's why they had to be shunned out of the garden. You know, won't fallen people taken of the tree of life and being immortally sinful. That's no good. So, you know, that story, we have to recapitulate in the story of Christ. We have the Garden of Gethsemane. JD (37:42) Yes. Ben Witherington, III (37:44) That's where it goes right instead of the first garden where it went wrong. JD (37:50) Well, so Ben, you're a New Testament scholar, you're a preacher of the gospel. But before any of that and after all of that, you're a Christian, you're a follower of Jesus. So as you come into Advent here again, like you've done it before, but not this time, how do you walk through these days of Advent. Ben Witherington, III (38:19) Well, what I do is, you know, I find myself an Advent devotional, a day by day Advent devotional. JD (38:26) We got one! Keep going. Ben Witherington, III (38:31) Well, this particular one that was sent to me is my friend James Howes. And we've been friends forever. And, you know, I go through one of those every year to get me ready, you know. And I really look forward to it. My sister's coming, so we'll be together at Advent. That'll be great. But, you know, you need to build the sense of anticipation, not about what presents am I going to get under the tree but guess who's coming it's not Saint Nick it's Jesus are you prepared to meet your maker at Christmas and if you're not a devotional would help to get you ready because there's a lot of wonderful thoughts that you should have in preparation for that. Instead of just being worn out and jaundiced and eating too much and unwrapping too many presents and forgetting what Christmas is really all about. JD (39:46) That's good. Well, I'm going send you our Advent book just as a little gift and thank you. that's the thing, Advent is just another, I call it, it's an awakening season. It's a season of awakening. Ben Witherington, III (39:57) Thank you. Yes. JD (40:13) Life, you know, starts with a movement, but then it slowly devolves into the motions and you just can go through the motions and even Christianity can become just, it's just another set of motions. And I'm like, wake up, sleeper. Ben Witherington, III (40:31) You know, if there's one Christmas song that I think does wake people up, it's Mary Do You Know. JD (40:40) Yeah, Mary did you know? That's a... Ben Witherington, III (40:44) And in the same question we could ask to people going to church, did you know? JD (40:51) Yes. Ben Witherington, III (40:52) That's a powerful song. JD (40:54) It's so good. Well, I think that we've covered the waterfront here. We've gone all the way back and we've looked to the end of time and we've gone to the manger and we've even gone to the cross here a little bit. And that's the beautiful thing about Advent. It's like. The journey starts here. We're gonna make another, we're not making another revolution around the S-U-N, right? We're making another revolution around the S-O-N, around the Son of God. And that's what I try to get across to people about the calendar. Like this is just following Jesus through his own story. Ben Witherington, III (41:29) Absolutely. Yep. Yep. JD (41:41) It's getting our lives back on track. And Advent is, I he'll take you any time, but Advent is the proper starting line, isn't it? Ben Witherington, III (41:54) Yes sir, absolutely. It sure is. Wonderful to see you JD. Happy Thanksgiving, Happy Christmas, and let's not be strangers. JD (42:00) Yeah, thank you Ben for sure. Well everybody thank you for joining us for this wake-up call conversation. It's been a real treat to have Dr. Ben Witherington III with us and he's we wish you a blessed Advent and a Merry Christmas and everybody out there we'll see you on the field. For the awakening, I’m JD Walt.